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In response to requests in another forum, I will post here some bits of the email correspondence I've had with experts.

Some background - I had been looking through the index of W.J. Watson's "The History of the Celtic Placenames of Scotland" (as you do), when I noticed that the element "maes-" was defined as meaning a plain or field, derived from the early Celtic "mages-", and related to similar words in Cornish ("mes") and Breton ("meaz"). I have since learned that "maes" is also used in Welsh, described to me by a Welsh speaking friend as a "formal way" to refer to a field. I recalled that there is some confusion about the origin of the name "Maeshowe", largely because no good meaning of the "maes-" element can be found. A number of explanations have been put forward, "Maiden's Howe" etc.., and all of these sound reasonable enough to me if this site was the only one that featured the "maes-" element. But it isn't.

I think it's reasonable enough to assume that the pre-Viking inhabitants of Orkney probably spoke a varient of the "Pictish" language of almost certain Celtic origin (can anybody confirm/disprove this, by the way?). Therefore, I think it is reasonable to assume that the "maes-" element in Orkney placenames is indeed of Celtic origin, and means "field" or "plain". This would certainly fit most of the places where it is found, from a physical description of the surrounding geography. I decided to email a few experts, to see what they thought.

(continued)

This first response was from an amateur, but a highly respected and published one:

"A Celtic origin for the Maes- element is possible but
there is one sticking point. Maeshowe is a later name
for the site, which supplanted Orkahaugr during the
earldom or later.

So, although I've thought about this long and hard
over the years, it makes no sense for a Celtic name to
supplant a Norse name, in an area where the language
was a derivative of Old Norse and particularly given
the fact that practically all our placenames have a Norse origin (although there are a few badly corrupted
elements that could, and probably, have a pre-Norse
element).

It doesn't fit the other Maes- placenames either.
Mount Maesry, for example is on the seashore."

This second response is from an academic, a Dr of Celtic studies:

"I cannot pretend to be a place-name expert, but fortunately my colleague <name removed> is an expert on Norse place-names. I've taken the liberty of copying this to him. When I hear the name Maeshowe I do think automatically of Brittonic 'maes', but Orkahaugr pretty much convinces me that the -howe part of the name is Norse -haugr. On top of that the place-name evidence from Orkney in general tells fairly emphatically against the idea of pre-Norse survivals: it would be strange for one element, maes, to survive alone.

My instinct would therefore be that maes- has a Norse origin, and has for some
reason come to replace orka- as the 'specific' element denoting this particular
'haugr'. It would be interesting to know when maes- is first attested there."

I am awaiting responses from two further, similarly qualified, experts in Celtic/Pictish history, and one expert in pre-Viking Orkney.

I do agree that it would be most unusual for a Celtic name to replace a Norse one, especially given that Orkney is an area where the locals would have been speaking a language closely related to Old Norse at the time. However, I do feel that the Celtic definition of the name seems to be too neat a physical description of the sites to be a pure coincidence. My own thoughts are that an older Celtic based name persisted in oral use among the locals throughout the "viking" period (probably while the site was referred to in writing, and "officially" as Orkahaugr) and eventually came to outright replace (or merge with) the Norse name, or maybe even that the Norse on the island for some reason just started to use an older Celtic element in their own name for the places.

I don't like the general "it's not Norse so it can't be right" argument - ok, so there's no certain Celtic source for "howe", but there's even less of a Norse source for "maes-".

Anyway - I would be delighted to hear anybody's thoughts on any of this, either here or by email.

Lian

PS If any of the experts I contaced happen to read this, please accept my apologies for posting without your permission. I have removed any clues to your identites.

This just received from another academic:

"Tradition has it that Mae was the personal name of a giant – this of course is the usual way of explaining unknown elements in Norse and other placenames.

From my limited knowledge of such matters, I would say that your suggestion is not an unreasonable one, given that the pre Norse ?Pictish language is now believed by some leading scholars to have been an early Celtic tongue akin to a primitive form of Welsh; rather than to Gaelic. This might help with the objections to the idea of your preferred derivation on the grounds of it not being a widespread one throughout Scotland, raised by the person who so far as I know first published the idea of this derivation, in the 1860s in the Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland.

Pre-Norse name survivals in the Northern Isles are scarce and all are much debated – for example some island names (such as Unst, Yell) don't fit obvious known Norse derivations but are plainly very ancient. But it seems to me that there would not be anything inherently unacceptable about a very prominent ancient landmark acquiring a placename which mixed an old local name with an incoming Norse element – the Howe bit is, of course, from Old Norse haugr, a mound (especially a burial mound). The main problem we have is that the name Maes Howe in any form does not appear in documents until very late, so we have no idea of any earlier name forms – if only we knew how it was spelled around 1000 AD, it would be much more likely that your idea could be supported or denied conclusively.

If you would like to discuss this idea with someone much more learned than <his organisation> on these matters, I would suggest you contact Dr <name and email address removed>. I suspect he has thought more deeply about this matter than anyone else currently living. Please feel free to say that I recommended you to him."

I checked the 1865 Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland and found the document he references. It's by Ralph Carr, and his main problem with this derivation was that the use of "maes" is not spread across the Scottish mainland. He suggests the Irish (Erse) source "mais", since several Orcadian promontories are designated by the Erse term "moul". He then goes on to translate and discuss the runes found at the site.

I will be following up by contacting the individual identified to me above.

Never discuss linguistics in the middle of a heavy Tolkien session.

I of course mean etymology, not sodding ENTymology.

"The "maes" element always has been rather puzzling, it doesn't seem to be Norse. I can't recollect what Hugh Marwick made of it. He strongly believed in a P-Celtic substratum to Orkney names, and yet he had difficulty producing immediately convincing examples. Interestingly, Jakob Jakobsen, the Faeroese scholar who studied the place-names of Shetland, equally well convinved himself - if no-one else - that the Celtic substratum was a Q-Celtic one. For many years the standard opinion on the pre-Norse language of the North was that promulgated by Prof Kenneth Jackson in his essay "The Pictish Language" in the seminal F T Wainwright volume "The Problem of the Picts" 1955 - that whereas the Picts of Fife, Angus, Perthshire spoke a P-Celtic language (with hints that this may have been slightly closer to Gaulish than to welsh), those north of the Highlands spoke a non-Indo-European language. You can't of course look for traces of a language you don't know. Jacksons view still seems to me to make good sense but the non-IE Pictish has now been challenged by K Forsyth who thinks that P-Celtic was spoken throughout the Pictish region. I can't help thinking though that if it had been so very general, the place-name traces would be obvious - as they are in the southern Pictish area, with "lin" instead of "loch", "lan" for an enclosure around a church, and abundant instances of "aber". If Welsh place-name elements (like the river names "Pant" and "Cam") can survive in East Anglia - a region heavily Anglo-Saxonised - surely some would be apparent in Orkney?

Anyway, obscure elements like "maes" could be non-IE, but no-one can prove they are. It isn't unique to Maeshowe. There is a chambered tomb, as it happens of Maeshowe type, on Start Point in Sanday - its name has been corrupted in recent times to "Mount Misery" but the older form is "Maesry". I don't think anyone can make any more of it than this."

While not immediately relevant to the "Maes-" question, I thought this site might interest many of you:

http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/pictnames/

Help with this please. It's commonly agreed that all the variations of the name Britain have derived from the writings of Pytheus of Massalia who, in 325BC, described the inhabitants of these islands as the Pretanike. Most references say that this is the name that the natives called themselves, however, is this not the ancient greek for painted ones.

I believe that when Pytheus asked,"who lives in those islands?", he was answered,
"the painted ones", this he then translated into greek as 'Pretanike'.

The welsh for Britain is Prythain which is commonly held to be the same root as Pretanike, however I believe that this is borrowed from the original Greek word.

Now, whether the 'painted ones' referred to the people or the stones is a different thread entirely.

If I'm talking complete bollocks please let me know!

Can I just say what an interesting thread this is - credit to you, sir (and all who have posted here!) (Mind you, all the a-tooing and a-froing reading various "takes" on the subject makes me dizzy) ;-).

Peace

Pilgrim

X

Sorry about not keeping this thread updated. I've been continuing this research in the background, and was offered what I personally think is most likely to be actual derivation of the name:

The accepted etymology for Maeshowe is ON mest(r) haug(r) ' biggest mound'
(mest-r being superlative of mikil-l, with comparative meiri). This certainly makes good sense both from a descriptive and linguistic point of view. What I don't know is when the earliest record is of the Maeshowe name.

Any thoughts or comments? This etymology certainly seems to make the most sense to me - it's fully Norse, and is a decent description of the site.