Mess/Mass/Maes/May

Orkney 49

Image by Moth

wideford Apr 16, 2005 11:23:13

My experience of these place-name elements in Orkney inclines me to think they all relate. The tendency has been to see mess- names as meaning mass and referring to churches, as with the Messigate names in St.Andrews. Down in Holm the irregularly shaped hillock of Mass Howe was associated with a known-of chapel site but currently more seen as relating to the many Moss 'marsh' names along this stretch of the parish [the also noted Mass Gate track actually seems to head more to the smaller and more circular hillock above this, and in a certain light I have photographed a vertical strip outlined on the side facing the road to thats left. {Between this and the road above the same day also showed rectangular cropmarks where CANMAP has nothing} ]. The other day I was researching the Hillhead of Crantit above Highland Park Distillery (a walled enclosure on the right as you leave town, the low ruins of a house within) and the 1882 map shows an odd rectangular feature by the road opposite, which (now) relates to Mayfield House. Knowing that this was not in Orkney a reference to hawthorn I thought it worthwhile to find the etymology. Except there isn't one. Nor for any similar names. And despite a few attempts no-one seems to have one for maes- names (most obviously Maes Howe).
So my hypothesis is, given the propensity to place Christian sites upon/by those of pagan veneration, that many of these not specifically church-type placenames are indicators of such prior sites. The question is are there pre-Christian sites outwith Orkney that have Mess/Mass/Maes/May placename-elements attached to them ?

moss Apr 16, 2005 12:16:03

Replying to wideford

Also came across Maes down here in Somerset. Maes Knoll is situated about a mile from Stanton Drew circles, and is an important landscape feature. Probably you could see it from the circles but have never checked, it has the Wansdyke running up to it, and a hillfort I think. When I looked at the name in the Anglo saxon dictionary, maeg stood at the beginning of a lot important words, maegan-cyning- mighty king; maegan-cyning - mighty burden; maegp - maiden. Maeres - valley of the boundary; maerlic - glorious; maesse - mass; and then you come to this maest - see micel which means great and maest which means greatest. So Maes knowe obviously comes under this heading. Though of course all the aforementioned are from the saxon who presumably never made it to Scotland! So will be of little help, but interesting;
Welsh; Maen - a stone; maes - field; Mam (gaelic) a large round hill; Mawr (welsh) great.
Think there is a good gaelic dictionary on Amazon (foreword by Peter Berriford Ellis)

follow that cow Apr 16, 2005 16:00:18

Replying to wideford

I've recently being studying the Picts, and in particular their interaction with the Viking/Norse, I'm sure that you are aware that in Orkney's case the general lack of place names outwith scandanavian origin has given rise to the war or peace debate regarding Viking /Norse settlement of the islands.

It's generally agreed that over 99% of all Orkney place names derive from the Norse, of course there is always that elusive 1%!!

Also, what about the third type of 1st millenia inhabitants of the islands ..... the Pabbay/Priests .. currently there is a certain amount of historic/ archaeological interest in these settlers/inhabitants (also in Iceland) about which virtually nothing is presently known.

Wideford, what's your view on the war or peace regarding Norse settlement?

FTC

follow that cow Apr 16, 2005 17:13:11

Replying to wideford

How(e) about these, I found these in an Old Norse Dictionary and similair to words in Icelandic

meizi - mutilation/injury
moela - (v) to speak
mal - speech/tale/talk
men - treasure

FTC

Lianachan Apr 18, 2005 08:53:42

Replying to wideford

This doesn't answer your question, but it may be of interest if not to you then to others who are interested in these topics.

http://www.orkneyjar.com/placenames/orkney.htm

The same site has an interesting page which weighs up the pros and cons of the "settlement or slaughter" debate about any Pictish/Norse entanglements in Orkney.

http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/takeover.htm

Lianachan Apr 18, 2005 09:26:54

Replying to wideford

I looked up "maes" in the Index of Celtic and Other Elements in W.J.Watson's 'The History of the Celtic Place-names of Scotland' (by A.G.James and S.Taylor incorporating the work of A.Watson and the late E.J.Basden) and it said:

Maes (Br, Corn, W), mages- (eCelt), mes (Corn), meaz (Bret), mutated faes, Angl moss- field, plain

How is listed as meaning "low hill". So, from those definitions, Maes Howe would simply mean "Plain with a low hill" - which does describe the setting pretty well.

Mess is referenced to Mae, Mass has no entry and May is listed as an anglicized version of the Irish meidhe - meaning neck, stump or trunk.

follow that cow Apr 18, 2005 09:37:06

Replying to wideford

When was the first written record of Maes Howe, and are there any records of previous name(s).

Plain Hill ... seems like a good translation to me .... but just how modern/ancient is it?

FTC